Tuesday 17 November 2009

LIBERTARIANZ SUS: The Trouble with Conservatives

Susan Ryder is not a conservative.  Just in case you were confused.

susanryder Winston Churchill is a man to quote. And of socialism, he said:

“(It) is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

I was never a socialist. The younger ones of my acquaintance tended to be painful in the extreme, bleating allegiance with the oppressed, suppressed and depressed while living rather comfortably in the greater scheme of things. They certainly had bugger all in common with the striking miners and black Africans with whom they were apparently soul-mates. Their tertiary educations were largely paid for by those of us at work, while the older graduates chose to ignore the irony of living in the (very) nice part of town while claiming psychological sisterhood with the state housing suburbs, into which they’d never set foot in a lifetime. I found the hypocrisy a hoot. Still do.

But their opposite numbers irritated me, too. I felt no kinship with people who were obsessed with minding others’ personal business. Opposing a gay couple from legally setting up house was just as loathsome and senseless as stopping a business from trading any day it pleased. As I saw it, the problem could always be sourced back to central control, no matter its political colour. The problem was the state flexing its iron muscles and telling people what to do.

Which brings me to a recent spat with a conservative.

I often visit Crusader Rabbit, a local blog featuring several conservative contributors who nonetheless acknowledge libertarian philosophy from time to time. It’s fair to say that there is some common ground, but every so often we markedly disagree. See what you make of this.

Towards the end of last month author “KG,” in a short post entitled ‘How cool is this!,’ reported the news that Oxford University was reserving two places for Australian Aboriginal students from next year, the scholarships being set up by the ‘Charlie Perkins Trust for Children and Students’ and funded by the Australian and British governments, together with mining giant Rio Tinto.

The interlude began with my brief comment that it would be “cooler” if two governments were not involved. That Rio Tinto could do as it pleased, but that I could never hail government involvement or taxpayers’ forced subsidisation of other children’s prestigious education as being either desirable or moral.

KG disagreed. Over the course of several exchanges, his argument can be summarised by the last words of his last post:

“Since the state will be involved, whatever we may think about it, I’d sooner applaud one microscopic example of it doing some good than indulge in hand-wringing about it on ideological grounds. Absolute consistency is a virtue of fools, in my humble opinion.”

Over the years I have been reading Crusader Rabbit, I recognise and accept that KG has had considerable experience with the Aboriginal community. It is clear that its parlous overall state is a subject dear to his heart, as is his constant opposition to the philosophy of socialism. And yet here he was, openly advocating socialism for a pet cause. In his defence, he noted that the public expense of two Aboriginal scholarships was insignificant relative to numerous other areas of wasteful government expenditure and that ideological opposition to something positive by comparison could be seen as “looking mean-spirited and negative.” Hold that thought.

A year ago I received some shocking news. My best friend’s sister has five children in their teens and early 20s. Last year, she and her husband learned that three of them were diagnosed with Friedreich’s Ataxia. I’d never heard of it. When I learned about it, I was numb to the core.

Briefly, it’s an inherited disease that affects the nervous system as a result of degeneration of nerve tissue in the spinal chord. Symptoms range from increasing clumsiness and gait disturbance to speech problems, blindness, deafness and heart disease. Life expectancy is a pitiful 35 years, with nearly all ending their short lives in a wheelchair.

The couple concerned are in their late 40s. Short of a scientific breakthrough in the interim, over the next 20 years they will watch their children progressively suffer and die a horrible, premature death.

If I had my way, I’d donate as much money as I possibly could to both research into the disease and the affected couple directly, who are presently altering their home at great expense to accommodate the coming changes. Instead, I’m forced to annually hand over thousands of dollars to the IRD with which the government happily plays political games, after firstly keeping a heap for itself.

In Australia and the UK, the two race-based tertiary scholarships are just one more example of these political games. Just as I should be free to fund the causes of my choice, KG should be free to donate to his, with neither imposing upon the other. I cannot see how that is either negative or mean-spirited.

The problem is, of course, that we currently don’t have that individual choice. But here’s a thought for those conservatives who rightly tear socialism to shreds except when they agree with it. Two wrongs do not, and never will, make a right, no matter the issue. There is nothing virtuous in playing political games, particularly in crucial industries such as health and education. On the other hand, absolute consistency in upholding a principle is a virtue. To do otherwise is frankly hypocritical.

Winston Churchill would get it.

* * Susan Ryder’s regular column will be irregular for a few weeks. Hey, we’re all allowed a life, you know! * *

67 comments:

KG said...

Thanks for representing my position honestly Sus. (even if in a very abbreviated form.)
I've no intention of arguing it all again, except to say that while we're arguing over what may or may not be ideal, two blackfellas will be going to Oxford. ;-)

Peter Cresswell said...

You ever understood the concept of What is Seen and What is Not Seen, KG?

Otherwise known as The Broken Window Fallacy?

Greig McGill said...

KG, without wanting to start the argument up again, can we address the principle involved? If Sus has represented your argument honestly (and you say she has), I'm just not sure how you can fail to see the hypocrisy there? If good is done voluntarily, that's great. If good is done with my money and against my will, that's evil. Who is anyone to decide their "good deed" supersedes my intention for that money? As Peter pointed out above, taking someone's money by force to "do good" with makes the mistake of assuming that a different, or even greater good wouldn't have been achieved had the individuals robbed been able to keep and use their money as they saw fit?

I'm a little staggered that you'd think this ok, simply because you agree with the end result.

Anonymous said...

What on earth does someone like KG who has said he would vote for BNP (and has them on his blogroll), fantasises about blood in the streets, civil war, deporting Muslims en masse, and the shooting or otherwise of political figures he doesn't like have in common with a libertarian?

Yet Sus often says she respects and admires this person. Why?

KG said...

I won't bother answering Ruth's idiocy--never mind the dishonesty. Life's too short to educate morons.

PC, I understand the broken window fallacy, but thanks for the links.:-)

Greig, I don't have either the time or the inclination to start the argument again. So I'll keep it short.
It isn't hypocrisy. I agree strongly with a whole lot of Libz positions but at the same time I recognise that we have to deal with the world as it is right now.
And I agree with what you just said.
But right now Aborigines are going backwards, they're dying unnecessarily, their kids are in a shocking state and they urgently need some educated, articulate role models.
Yes, it's probably wrong that the taxpayer is helping fund the scholarships. In a perfect world that wouldn't be necessary and it wouldn't happen.
But until then, I'm prepared to swallow my objections and hope that--if this is successful--there'll be enough money generated from Aboriginal enterprises to fund this kind of education in future.

Ideological purity looks a bit pointless when you're actually confronted with the squalor and hopelessness and kids with no future.

So, I plead guilty to inconsistency y'honner. But not to hope.

Sus said...

Why, Ruth?

Because, as noted in the post, there *is* plenty of common ground, best exemplified by the number of times CR links to this site.

Does that mean I share KG's support for immigration restrictions, etc? Not at all, as shown by the comments I leave over there to the contrary -- (which has certainly stirred the blood on occasion, by the way).

If it's possible to agree with those on the left on the odd occasion .. Tim Selwyn & the sedition laws and Tim Barnett & prostitution spring to mind .. then it goes that the same applies with the right.

Surely that's being objective?


NB: This post was always intended to play the ball and not the man. I intend to keep visiting CR.

Greig McGill said...

OK KG, so your position is that "the way it is happening sucks, but the outcome is good, so I'll not worry about the method"?

I can live with that. I'd never cheer for it myself, because my principles are my own and I try to stick to them, but I can at least see where you're coming from now.

Shane Pleasance said...

I would be interested to see if all the other polbloggers who seem to insist on calling us LIBZ 'right wingers' finally see the difference?

Great piece, thank you Sus.

Sus said...

"the way it is happening sucks, but the outcome is good, so I'll not worry about the method"?

Spot on, Greig. And *that* is the trouble with conservatives ... while Di (blackly apt) watches three of her kids die.

My pet cause takes precedence over yours, eh. :/

KG said...

Greig, I worry about the method and I don't like it.
But right now there seems to be no alternative method on offer.

One of the reasons Sus' visits to CR are so enjoyable is that we can argue passionately yet still recognise
the common ground we share.

The CR blogroll has views as diverse as the BNP and Eternity Road--nobody has a monopoly on the truth.

Peter Cresswell said...

@KG: You say "nobody has a monopoly on the truth," which I have to say is a clearly recognisable conservative trope, and frankly an excuse for "principled" agnosticism -- a sort of confession that the world is "imperfect" so we should all just muddle through.

It's the simple reason you're confounded by ethical conflicts on something as simple as the issue of Aboriginal scholarships. I can almost here you saying "it's too complex, who am I to know!"

And it made me reflect both on why Ayn Rand was not a conservative, and on a comments thread discussing that in which some very good comments on that theme appeared, starting with this one:


"I think there is a direct ratio of how much a conservative respects Edmund Burke to how little they respect Ayn Rand. As I have come to learn from reading many Conservative blogs the past year or so, Conservatives are steeped in Burkean skepticism.

"They believe that reason is limited (or “unaided reason” as they will put it – [i.e., unaided by faith and by revelation]) and that society must develop “organically” out of its traditions and institutions. The most important institutions [to the conservative therefore] are church and family (which is why they despise gay marriage and sexual liberation – because they threatens the family which is the foundation of society – not the individual – as they see it).

"Only “liberals” believe in the use of “unaided reason” to build an ideal society. To many conservatives, believe it or not, Rand is a “utopian liberal.”

"They hate Rand because she argued for absolutes without god, a completely secular morality that, along with a laissez – faire political system, must all be based on an unfailing commitment to “unaided reason” (or “materialist reason” as the Platonist Conservatives will put it). In that way Rand rejected the three fundamental premises of Conservatives: 1) god and supernaturalism, 2) mindless tradition (ancestor) worship, 3) Original Sin (innate depravity).

"True conservatives (especially those of the 19th century European variety) hate Ayn Rand. They have no choice given their premises. In fact, as Rand becomes more popular, I expect the religious/traditionalist conservative response towards her to be just as hate-filled as the Leftist one. [Witness RodBeater, eh!]"


That comment on this post kicked off a very good thread at the New Clarion. Worth reading.

Sus said...

And on it goes.

(BTW, he also supported the socialism he professes -- in no uncertain terms -- to despise. I rest the case).

Peter Cresswell said...

(Just for clarification, Sus was responding to yet another contribution from the Great RodBeater, who still doesn't understand what it means when he's told he's not welcome here. Which is why he's been deleted again.)

KG said...

"and frankly an excuse for "principled" agnosticism -- a sort of confession that the world is "imperfect" so we should all just muddle through."

Well yes--and no. I have a very clear set of principles and do my damnedest to stick to them. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be and that means accepting the fact that we have to work with what we have while at the same time working towards something better.
All of us have to deal with a world that's full of things we're opposed to in principle and we have to bend on occasion in recognition of that.

I'd also argue that it's very easy to preach about principles provided somebody else is paying the price.
Not so easy when a principled stand means we face jail or penury, is it?
We all compromise, every day of our lives, in a hundred ways.

KG said...

(if these comments seem a little disconnected, it's because I'm doing some illegal building and checking here in a hurry occasionally. :-) )

Peter Cresswell said...

@KG, you said: "I have a very clear set of principles and do my damnedest to stick to them. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be."

True, but the point made by some of the commenters in the 'New Clarion thread is that it's very important whether those principles are derived from from this world, or the "next" one -- i.e. whether your principles are derived from a natural source, or a supernatural one

KG said...

"..whether your principles are derived from a natural source, or a supernatural one"

I don't think it matters PC. A principle is a principle, whatever the source.
And that's perhaps too broad an argument for the time I have right now.
How about a post on the subject?

Peter Cresswell said...

@KG: " A principle is a principle, whatever the source."

But that's absurd. "Oh look, a principle; I'll take ten!" Is that how you choose your principles?

I have to tell you, it makes a huge difference whether your principles are derived from reality or from somewhere else.

Put simply, if they're not based on reality, then why on earth should they ever be expected to work in reality?

No wonder people become mired in complexity worship instead.

"How about a post on the subject?"

Crikey, I thought I'd done several.

But until I track them down, or rewrite them, why not read Lindsay Perigo's brief description of how moral principles are derived from reality; and take a listen to BB&T chair John Allison's explanation of why principles derived from reality don't give you a list of don'ts to be avoided, but a real prescription for success, and profits.

KG said...

"But that's absurd. "Oh look, a principle; I'll take ten!" Is that how you choose your principles?"
Is that a rhetorical question or an attempt to do what leftists do all the time--take a statement and twist it in order to ridicule it?

I can't be bothered debating on those terms.

The point is, a principle is worthwhile adopting--or not--regardless of the source.

"I have to tell you, it makes a huge difference whether your principles are derived from reality or from somewhere else."
And I have to tell you--not necessarily.

KG said...

And while we're at it PC, why not argue from your own thoughts, not the words and thoughts of Rand or Perigo or whoever? Quoting those people at me is utterly pointless, since my reading list already far exceeds the lifetime I have left.

KG said...

"It's the simple reason you're confounded by ethical conflicts on something as simple as the issue of Aboriginal scholarships. I can almost here you saying "it's too complex, who am I to know!"

Which would at least be honest, if that were my position. But I made it very plain it isn't.
It is complex, whether you like it or not and whether or not it fits a simplistic ideology. I'm beginning to suspect that the attraction of Libertarianism is the sheer simplicity of it. You promote that as a virtue but if that's true then it's a virtue without meaning, since the world simply doesn't--and never will work that way.
So far, you've given six links to other thinkers and a long copy-and-paste to support your position.
I could equally easily go find another bunch of links which flay libertarianism and post them as 'argument'.
But it isn't, is it?
There is no "one size fits all" solution to what ails us and I don't trust anybody or any party who promotes such a thing.

Sus said...

What *won't* work, KG, is socialism .. whether it's applicable to something you personally agree with or oppose.

It's simply hypocritical to oppose it except when it's applicable to a pet cause.

That remains the point of the post.

(Ha! word verif: logic) :)

Sus said...

KG wrote: "There is no 'one size fits all' solution to what ails us and I don't trust anybody or any party who promotes such a thing."


You've said that before. You're still wrong, for reasons that follow in no particular order:

1. We do not profess to be "the one size fits all solution". Never have done, but plenty of other parties fit the bill so take your pick. We simply want to transitionally reduce the state to allow you to live your life as you see fit. Problems will always arise, but people would be free to adopt their own solutions.

2. Greig recently suggested in another post that you separate the *principles* from the party. He's dead right. The Libz is not a party that promises you anything -- (which makes it unique in itself) -- other than your freedom.

3. As such, the upholding of its principles remains paramount.


Q: Where do you take issue with that?

Anonymous said...

Sus et al - you are trying to sweep water uphill. 'KG' and his friends on his blog are not, and will never be, libertarians. They have even said they will not vote for you.

*All* garden variety conservatives are in favour of small govt, no welfare, guns and so on. Immigration is the bailiwick of the Right and this tends to be a litmus test. Harry Binswanger has a good essay on it which Peter has linked in the past.

Really Sus I think you should spend your time at The Standard or Kiwipolitico if you want to argue the toss. The ground is more fertile in the long run to be sure.

Oswald Bastable said...

The ground should be more fertile.

The manure has been spread pretty damn thick!

KG said...

". As such, the upholding of its principles remains paramount."

Libz believe in private ownership of roads, right?
Yet you all drive on the roads right now and pay taxes specifically to do so.
I believe in private funding of scholarships. Yet the state has used taxpayer's money to pay for two and I regard the good in that particular case as outweighing the bad.

Yet you have the nerve to suggest that I grab principles out of he air on a whim?

Mine are no more flexible than yours, PC and Sus. I'm just more honest about it.

Greig McGill said...

Ruth - that's a fairly negative viewpoint. A good debate is a good debate, no matter where it's found. The object for me is the furthering of knowledge, not "conversion" of people to Libz voters. If that's a side effect, great. As Sus said, it's pretty hard to embrace libertarian principles and *not* want to vote for a party who only wish to give you more freedom to live your life as you see fit.

Plenty of people read this blog. A proportion of those will read the debates in the comments. Even if the person you're trying to convince remains set in their beliefs, it's possible some other reader will take away some morsels for later digestion. That is how I came around to libertarian principles.

DenMT said...

Entirely off-topic, so forgive me, but when I noticed that Redbaiter had had more of his literary pearls deleted, I assumed that PC had posted them up at the RedbaitersBile page, and went for a look.

Is it just me, or is there a scary form of poetry going on with his ranting? Indulge me, have a read, but imagine Sam Hunt reciting it, tottering about in front of an earnest audience. With your opposition to post-modernist 'claptrap' PC, you might be able to turn a buck out of this, with some clever and surreptitious rebranding!

DenMT

LGM said...

KG

That's an interesting analogy.

I understand the Libz do not approve of the present arrangement when it comes to roads (where the roads are nationalised). They do not support that system at all. They may have to use the system as presently configured, but that does not mean they support the system as presntly configured. Indeed, they oppose it.

Similar deal with scholarships, I'd imagine. The Libz do not support government derived scholarships. They oppose them.

What the Libz are taking you to task about is that you appeared to support such scholarships. That would be an abandonment of principle in favour of expediency.

My understanding is that you are saying that you don't agree with government funding of scholarships, but that if the government does fund this particular scholarship, then that money at least has been directed into something worthshile. is that your position?

LGM

PS I oppose such scholarships. An objection not yet raised relates to the questions such as:
What are the recipients being funded to learn?
Are they being indoctrinated by socialists/ collectivists, to become socialists/ collectivists?
In other words, is their subsidised training going to result in yet more harm for other people?

Monsieur said...

Damn the principles.
Why has an Aussie Aborigine never studied post-graduate at Oxford?
Bob Hawke was a Rhodes scholar. Bill Clinton. I guess the Rhodes Trust never thought there was an Aborigine with leadership potential.
But finally, some other mining interest has stumped up in a PPP with the Aussie Government. I hope the recipients of that scholarship study Law, and sue the crap out of Rio Tinto and the Aussie Government, for all the billions they have stolen from Aboriginal land. Then aborigines could all pay to go to Oxford.

KG said...

Yes, LGM that's my position. I've argued again and again against taxpayer's money being used to fund pet/race-based projects. (as well as a hell of a lot of other things which we needn't go into).

My argument is that we live in an imperfect world, make all kinds of necessary compromises and in this particular case at least the money may help in some small way to fix a monstrous problem. So I'm ok with it.
Those who fling charges of hypocrisy around need to look very carefully at the compromises they themselves make first.

End of story. :-)

Falafulu Fisi said...

I once applied for an NZAID scholarship to come & study medicine at either Auck Uni or Otago, in which I didn't make the top 3 places and ended up studying science though funded by my brothers & sisters who were already here. The NZAID program which is run by the NZ Foreign affairs targets the Pacific Islands and has been going on for years if not decades, even before I set foot on this country. There are 3 places offered to Tonga every year for top students to study medicine here in NZ (either Auckland or Otago). The NZAID also offers similar number of places to Samoa, Fiji and other Pacific Islands , every year.

The program has been successful, in lifting the standard of practice for medicine (including the general health of the populations) in the islands.

Question?

Would the Liberatarians (including Ayn Rand because she was alive at the time) have opposed the Marshall Plan? If not, then why not? Pls Explain.

Greig McGill said...

The easiest way to explain why a principled libertarian would have to oppose that plan is just to add some explanatory text to a bit of that article FF:

During that period some USD 13 billion in economic and technical assistance were [first taken by force from US citizens and then] given to help the recovery of the European countries that had joined in the Organization for European Economic Co-operation.

KG: Roads. Give me a choice, and I'll take it. All I could reasonably do would be to boycott them, and then I couldn't really live my life could I? Using something because you have no other option and endorsing that thing are NOT the same. Celebrating something evil as good (even if you had no say in it, and it would have happened anyway) is still endorsement.

Dave Mann said...

Are these two 'blackfellas' intelligent, articulate and hardworking enough to actually go to Oxford and benefit from it and contribute to something in the first place.... or is this just another piece of soggy do-gooder wankery? (just asking....)

Surely, if the state is considering spending money on this, rather than pretending to provide "educated, articulate role models", wouldn't a better and more effective plan be to put the money and effort into BASIC EDUCATION and LITERACY PROGRAMS for the young blackfellas instead?

The idea of sending a couple of Aboriginals to Oxford on scholarships sounds like tokenism to me and I doubt that it will benefit anybody except the PR firm which thought it up.

KG said...

"...wouldn't a better and more effective plan be to put the money and effort into BASIC EDUCATION and LITERACY PROGRAMS for the young blackfellas instead?"

Not necessarily. Australia has been pouring millions of dollars into such programs for years now. And they're largely failing, for reasons I don't have time to go into right now.

Falafulu Fisi said...

Greig,

I understand that the billions were stolen (in libertarian language), but just think for a moment of why they did it and why was it necessary to do it (according to what the US government officials were thinking at the time)? Perhaps some Libz economists can explain it better here for us, if it was necessary or if it wasn't.

Here is my physics analogy, which is basically applicable to the world that we live in. Modern physics have gone as far to describe physical laws & physical observables that supposed to govern matter and objects in the universe. These laws completely break down inside a black hole (as far as current understanding is). In a real world, when law & order breaks down, then you face huge problems (refugees, terrorisms, etc,...). The libertarians will say, Ok, lets allow refugees in, but they have to be self-supportive, but that's not the situations where most refugees are in. Most of them had nothing at all when they seek refuge in another places. It's Ok, when you're dealing with one, two, three boats at a time, but what happens when you're overwhelmed with 100's of thousands, let alone a million at a single point in time? What you're gonna do? Shoot them all? At some point you have to either make a decision to shoot them or detained them at some locations in your own country, until you figured out what to do with them. In a libertarian government, you have to supply food to those detainees somehow, remember, that the government only has a budget for defense & law , but nothing for keeping refugees alive, since there is no such department as refugee department. These difficulties that a libertarian government faces is equivalent to a black hole. Laws & the ability to protect property rights works well only in a non-dire situations like the hypothetical questions/scenarios I have posed here.

Another question.

Why doesn't the US just fuck-off from Afghanistan, because their initial mission was accomplished already in the first few years of going in there, ie, toppling of the Taleban and installing a new government there? The Taleban only gained strength in recent years but they were almost or completely annihilated in the first year. There is a reason that they're still there and it is and it is you have to stop the problem right there, before everything decays into a black-hole environment. Get this straight, the US & allies are not just there to keep the Talebans from intimidating the villagers, they also dish out money (US stolen taxpayer money) for reconstruction programs. The libertarians wouldn't approve that would you? There is more to preventing a society from decaying into a black hole situation, than just blasting them with bombs into submission and back to cave age. If that was the cage, then the Talebans would have not gained strength over recent years and that's fact. The US military with the stolen money from it's taxpayers have to do a bit of socialism by doing reconstruction works, schools , hospitals, building institutions, etc,... in order to prevent a black-hole scenario.

Would a liberatarian general, would have run the Afghanistan operation better, ie, just blast the bastards (terrorists, civilians & children) to submissions? I bet that a libertarian general would do exactly what others before him would do, and that is, you must convince the populations that you're doing good work, by building schools, roads, hospitals, and so forth which is socialism. So, can you now see my black hole scenario & analogy here?

Sus said...

KG, you're a good sport for having the guts to front up on this. I appreciate the time & effort involved.

LG has answered the questions re roads in the interim.

LG also said: "An objection not yet raised relates to the questions such as: What are the recipients being funded to learn? Are they being indoctrinated by socialists/ collectivists, to become socialists/ collectivists?"

I raised that very issue in the original discussion over at CR, (which PC links to in yesterday's post).

To paraphrase, I made the point that, given the political involvement, there would be a *very* good chance of the two grads (presuming they finish their study) being indoctrinated in socialist dogma and wouldn't it be ironic if they returned to Aus and proceeded to demand this and that from the taxpayer ...

Mons: It's not just the Australian taxpayers funding these schols. It's the British taxpayers as well. Why on earth should the latter, in particular, have to?

Falafulu Fisi said...

I enjoyed watching the movie Charlie Wilson's War that led to the retreat of the Soviet army from Afghanistan in the late 80s. In that movie (at the end), Congressmen Wilson, was trying to convince his fellow committee members in the Senate that the US, should have stayed on in Afghanistan to do reconstruction work (ie, socialism really), because in his view at the time, that there was more to keeping the stability in the long term in Afghanistan (ie, prevent the decay into a blackhole scenario), than just winning militarily over there and just packing up and go home. His fellow congressmen in that committee rebuffed his request.

The emergence of Bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 1990s was no coincidence, because this was what Congressman Wilson foreseen at the time (not specifically Bin Laden himself), but he foresaw that if Afghanistan deteriorated into a blackhole situations, then the problem will come back to haunt the US in later years. He was quite correct in his visions, back then.

I suggest that you should go and watch that movie Greig, because even Congressman Wilson was a democrat, he was a true American. If you get the DVD, just forward it right to the end of the film, that showed his meetings with fellow Senate members when he appealed to them to approve reconstruction funds, in which his colleagues sort of laugh at him. He also mentioned a great line, which I can't recalled correctly but it was something like the following:

In wars that we (US) have fight and won, we stayed behind to do reconstructions and we always leave after that. We don't occupy them.

Peter Cresswell said...

@ Falufulu Fisi:
* * You're really talking about the 'ethics of emergencies' here -- situations that are completely outside the pale of normal day-to-day life -- situations in other words when ethics predicated on normality break down.

But life doesn't consist of regular emergencies, and if it did then no ethics would be necessary, because no ethics help you. "By its nature, an emergency situation is temporary; if it were to last, men would perish. . . The principle that one should help men in an emergency cannot be extended to regard all human suffering as an emergency and to turn the misfortune of some into a first mortgage on the lives of others" - Ayn Rand on Emergencies.

* * On the Marshall Plan: You overestimate its positive effects, and far underestimate its negative effects.

The biggest negative (apart from the loss of what American producers could have done with that money if it hadn't been stolen from them) was that by supporting socialist govts and programmes, it allowed socialist leaders to portray for decades the illusion that socialism was successful.

This is somewhat analogous to the disaster of donations to events like Live Aid: given to help people in times of famine, the money ends up in the hands of the very political leaders who caused the tragedy.

And the positive? The positives were illusory. Both Ludwig Erharfd and Wilhelm Ropke did more to get Germany on the path to recovery than an Marshall Aid dollars. And Japan put itself on the road to recovery without any help at all from Marshall Plan dollars.

Fact is, the main "benefit" from Marshall Aid was intended to be the dissemination of American dollars through the world in order to prop up the Bretton Woods agreement.

Best thing to read on this would be Henry Hazlitt's 'Will Dollars Save the World,' which fortunately for you is online in PDf here.

KG said...

Thanks for the gracious comment Sus. :-)

Peter Cresswell said...

@KG & @Dave Mann: Depends what those basic literacy and education programmes are, and who's delivering (and paying) for them.

For example: It's still in its early days, but Australia's Montessori Foundation has been having great success with introducing the reality-based Montessori programme in Aboriginal communities, and in training Aboriginal Montessori teachers to run them.

The programme is predominantly privately-funded (you need to get the politicians on-side just enough so they'll get out of the way), and is intended to be self-sustaining within a few years.

Barry said...

It seems PC that you like to distort facts to suit your own arguments.

Japan became strong with the EXPRESS help of the USA through favourable trading arrangements.

You need to do a little more research befoce asserting that Japan stood up on it's own.
Because you are very wrong.

South Korea and Taiwan received the same favourable trading arrangements as Japan. USA needed them as a vanguard against China.

Read a year 11 high school text book on the subject first please.

Peter Cresswell said...

@Barry: The context of the discussion here is The Marshall Plan.

Remember the Marshall Plan?

So in that context when I say "Japan put itself on the road to recovery without any help at all from Marshall Plan dollars," what I mean is that Japan put itself on the road to recovery without any help at all from Marshall Plan dollars.

Please feel free to apologise for being an oaf.

Peter Cresswell said...

@Barry: And by the way, it's true that Japan did receive financial aid and other "assistance" (though not part of the Marshall Plan), but this short article by John Tamny puts that in context:

"Though Japan did not fall under the Marshall Plan umbrella, the U.S. offered the nearly destroyed country financial aid, along with lots of economic “solutions” including wage and price controls, greater government oversight of industry, and a heavily devalued yen. But as Nathan Lewis wrote in 'Hard Money,' it was only when Japan ended “wage and price controls, liberated industry from government control, demolished subsidies, ended U.S. economic aid, and brought the central government’s budget into balance” that its economy began to grow."

Dave Mann said...

KG, if literacy programs aimed at Aboriginals have failed, then its probably due to that fact that the buggers don't want to learn and/or don't see tha value in getting an education.

In either case, I fail to see how sending a couple of Aboriginals off to Oxford University will make one iota of difference to their plight.

The problem seems to me to be deeply rooted in their culture and making tokenist gestures is hardly likely to fix this.

Greig McGill said...

No worries Red. We think so you (obviously) don't have to.

Sus said...

You have to wonder why someone would continue to visit a site he professes to despise, along with most who comment here.

I just popped over to CR to see what they had to say today ... and I find a thread from yesterday infested with Redrant. Same old, same old.

Knew who it was straight away ... saw my old mates "sneering" and "pseudo-intellectual"! :)

Julian said...

Greg and Sus
Please ignore him!
Julian

Greig McGill said...

Sorry Julian. I used to defend him, until it became apparent that he was a screaming child in a sandpit. Today I just couldn't resist a dig. Mood thing. I'll leave it alone next time. :)

LGM said...

Greig

Bear baiting?

LGM

KG said...

"KG, if literacy programs aimed at Aboriginals have failed, then its probably due to that fact that the buggers don't want to learn and/or don't see tha value in getting an education."

"probably"? Why probably Dave? What do you base that guess on? Literacy programs have failed in NZ, Australia and America too.
You don't suppose it might have something to do with the quality/appropriateness of the programs themselves? Or the quality of the teachers in predominantly Aboriginal schools?

At several communities we worked in, teachers skipped conventional lessons almost entirely and "school" was simply one long playtime/childminding session while the bulk of the teachers bludged off on their own pursuits, two-day shopping trips to Darwin etc etc.

Almost every time I had to teach young or old Aborigines something I found them eager to learn and some of them were very bright indeed.

If you think it's the fault of the students, ask yourself this--how is it that teachers can mark kids as 'passed' a grade when those kids can't so much as write their own names?
Those kids lucky enough to have good teachers have no trouble going on to make damn good health workers, mechanics etc.

Sus said...

And I wouldn't argue with any of that, KG, teachers being the product of a socialist system.

But the fact remains that you, who consistently rails against socialism in strong language, did a 180 and defended it in this instance. You approved of it. Worse, you had no problem in forcing British taxpayers (British, for heaven sakes!) to fork out for it.

I never defend it. I remain opposed to it in every way, shape or form.

That's the difference. When you start to make exceptions, it leads us to right where we are today.

Gee. To think all of this came from one short phrase that never criticised the concept of the scholarships, but the political involvement.

Greig McGill said...

LGM - nope, I was fully clothed at the time.

Ah, homonym humour. I have sunk that low...

Greig McGill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
twr said...

Point of order: Red's supposed to be the one responsible for homonym-bashing.

twr said...

...and, ironically, most of the ad hominem attacks.

KG said...

"I never defend it. I remain opposed to it in every way, shape or form."
There's a name for that Sus--fanaticism.

"That's the difference. When you start to make exceptions, it leads us to right where we are today."
As I pointed out, we all make exceptions, in one way or another, every day of our lives.
Life would be impossible otherwise.

And it's telling that myself and two other people I know very well have been turned off voting for the Libz next time by this discussion. The loss of three supporters may not bother anybody here but if it's symptomatic of the way people react to exposure to committed Libz, then you have a problem.

Oswald Bastable said...

So the offending statement could be summarised by 'If my money is going to be scattered to the winds, this is as good a place as any'

People, we have FAR better targets out there...

Sus said...

Fanatical about being opposed to the forced taking of other people's money, KG? Or having the temerity to think that what I earn should be mine?

Yes.

You also continue to ignore the blatant difference between having no choice (right now) in using public roads and being opposed to the premise of them being publicly-owned -- in direct comparison with your *choice* to approve the socialist scholarships.

As such, I look forward to your equal enthusiasm at the news the Australian and NZ govts, in association with Fonterra, are funding two places at Sydney University for two Maori students from Tolaga Bay. Just imagine the delight from your Australian readers at that news.

OB: I hear you. But (and it's an important but) the Libz is the only non-socialist party on the books. If I cannot point out - and criticise - socialism when I see it, what does that say for me as a spokesman for this party?

KG said...

"You also continue to ignore the blatant difference between having no choice (right now) in using public roads and being opposed to the premise of them being publicly-owned -- in direct comparison with your *choice* to approve the socialist scholarships."

This is getting tiresome Sus.
You justify using public roads because you have no choice. I justify the use of public money for two Aboriginal scholarships (which I also have no choice about) because it may do some good, even though I'm generally opposed to spending taxpayer's money that way.
For chrissakes, what next? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

You're at serious risk of becoming submerged in your own split hairs.
Do you and those who argue similarly seriously think the voting public gives a stuff about fine doctrinal points? Because if you do, then I have news for you.....
And if you don't care what the public thinks then what's the point of the Libz?
As you said in CR.."I'm out of here". This has become absurd.

Sus said...

With respect to the three people "turned off" voting Libz because of this discussion, well, so be it. That's their call.

The reason that we never have to alter the wording in our printed material due to our principles being set in stone is precisely the point of this post.

Tired Of Libz said...

Sus, what's the point of trying to preach your principles to the public, if you can't persuade them first? Why waste your air, time, brain in trying to convince a public that won't understand what you're trying to preach to them? Why don't you just give up and go and establish an utopian world somewhere.

LGM said...

KG

Are you justifying anything? I didn't think so (but I have not read the other thread yet, so correct me if I'm wrong).

My understanding is that you are taking the position that the scholarships were a better expenditure of stolen funds than, say, Roddy's naughtiness trips with the mistress.

To clarify the matter:

Is it your position that, at least, the scholarships may result in some good, even though you do not support the means by which the funding for them was accumulated?

Is it correct that you remain firmly and consistently opposed to the government stealing people's property (including their money)?

Would you agree that the final expenditure of stolen money does not justify the act of stealing it in the first place?

Let me know, as that would assist with understaning what your position on the matter is.


Thanks

LGM

KG said...

"Is it your position that, at least, the scholarships may result in some good, even though you do not support the means by which the funding for them was accumulated?"
Yes.

"Is it correct that you remain firmly and consistently opposed to the government stealing people's property (including their money)?"
I recognise the need for taxation, dispute the level and the use of it.

"Would you agree that the final expenditure of stolen money does not justify the act of stealing it in the first place?"
That'd take more time than I have to answer--it depends who it's stolen from, whether the act of taking it actually constitutes 'stealing' etc etc. That's too much like a "have you stopped beating your wife yet, answer yes or no question."

LGM said...

KG

Ta. I'll think on it some.

BTW the third question is readily answered with a yes or a no. If an analogy for it must be employed, then this one captures the essence more accurately:

Do you recognise that beating your wife is not justified by the state of you emotions? Answer yes or no.

Cheers

LGM

Greig McGill said...

Tired of Libz: What's the alternative, in your opinion? Should those of us who care, and hate seeing the world slide further down into the mire of collectivism just sit back and do nothing as it happens? Persuasion is our only weapon. If you're bored by watching us try, stop reading. If you have suggestions, for how we can do better, please offer them? What good does it do putting those of us who try down from the sidelines behind a pseudonym?

LGM said...

KG

OK. Here is what I think on this.

My answer to the first question would be the same as yours providing the scholarship recipients were not indoctrinted in socialist or collectivist ideology. If they are being taught such nonsense, then my answer would be that the scholarships result in evil being done and there is nothing good about that. In such a case I would oppose the scholarship on the grounds that the recipients were receivers of stolen property and also that they were consuming such property to evil ends. A not good outcome and completely unjustifiable.

Regarding the second question, I would not agree with you unless the taxation was voluntary. If it was collected coercively and by compulsion (in other words there was an initiation of force or threat of it), then it is clearly theft. That would be a destruction of Individual Rights. There is no validation available for that.

Third question is easy to answer. The final expenditure of stolen money does not justify the act of stealing it in the first place.

Sticking to principle consistently is important. To do otherwise is unprincipled.

LGM